Dedicated track car build - 2007/10/16 19:29I am going to move my track car project into this forum. Most of the information below was copied from the "Projects" tab on the forum. From now on, all updates will be posted here.
Background
For years, I have had thoughts of building my own car. In college I designed a single seat, mid-engine, VW powered car with a group of buddies. Ever since, I have told myself I would build the car. After sitting out a few track days because of various issues with the Vette and Camaro I decided the time had come to follow through. My original plan was to make a single seat car powered by a SRT-4 engine/trans combo positioned in the middle of the car. Think Ariel Atom. Then, I saw a car at a golf course that changed my mind for the better. What I saw was a homebuilt car based on a C5 Corvette powertrain and suspension. I stared at that car for 20 minutes taking in all the details I could. Afterward, I knew I had to have a V8. So, the current plan is to build a mid-engine, two seat, LSx powered car for the track.
Trans
The key to a V8 powered mid-engine car is the transaxle. There were/are very few cars from which to pull a transaxle that can handle the torque of a V8. The options include Audi, Porsche, VW, Ford GT40, Ford GT, Corvair, and a few other European makes that weren't really imported to the US. All of them have some sort of weakness. The Audi transaxles are not easy to find now that the replica GT40 people know about them, and many people question their ability to handle a V8. The Porsche transaxles have to be flipped up side down, so the half shafts have to run at a larger than desired angle. The VW based transaxles can be made to take the torque, but your pay the price. Starting price for a VW based transaxle for this power level is $9500. Price is what excludes the Ford examples as well. Apparently, Ford will sell you a brand new GT trans...for $14,000. I am still researching my options, but right now I am leaning towards the Porsche G50 transaxle from a 911. The entry fee is higher, but it should hold up to the LS engine with no problems. I will see what I can do with the rear trackwidth to reduce the angle of the half shafts.
CAD
As much as I want to just buy some tubing and start cutting and welding, I figure, as an engineer, I should probably do some design work first. I decided to take a CAD class because I don't have much experience with the modern CAD packages. I chose Unigraphics because I have access to it and people that use it regurlarly for those times I run into problems. I'm about half way through the class at OCC, and I have picked up a lot of tips and techniques, but we still haven't gotten to what I want. So, I have been trying some things on my own.
This is the first part for the car that I have modeled. I made the vanes curved for no other reason than I wanted to learn how to do that. Making the vane curved wasn't difficult. What was difficult was constraining it so that I could change the overall shape of the rotor and the vanes would change as well. I went through about 4 iterations before I came up with something that worked. Now, I can change the diameter and thickness of the rotor and the complete model updates without crashing. The next item will be modeling a C5 spindle. I ordered it from a Vette parts place, and I will get started as soon as it shows up.
Post edited by: Head Ball, at: 2007/10/16 19:33
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Head Ball
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Re:Dedicated track car build - 2007/10/16 19:45Update 2/20/07
I haven't been working on the car much at all lately due to work. I just returned from 3 weeks in Europe, and I am headed back for another 7. However, I think this trip will be more productive for the car. I just picked up a laptop capable of running UG. Now, when I'm sitting in my hotel with nothing to do, I can work on the model.
A month or so ago I did buy the driver's seat. It's a Kirkey intermediate road racing aluminum seat. I am pretty happy with it, but I was expecting they would have TIG welded it. Instead, all the welds were done with MIG. I'm sure they are plenty strong, but they aren't the best looking. Once the cover is on, no one will see, though.
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Head Ball
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Update April 1, 2007 - 2007/10/16 19:49Thought it was time for an update. I tried a few times, but the internet conenction I have here is Germany is a little sketchy. Anyway, probably the biggest update is I think I have finalized the trans problem. I am going to go with a paddle shifted automatic and use some of the new features being developed for the Megasquirt computer to control it all. I will bolt the auto from a C5 Vette directly to the engine, and the diff to that. The package is longer than I want, but it's strong, available, and paddle shifting is just plain cool. I found a guy that has done the physical part of this before, so I know that can all be done. I have talked with the guy developing the code for running the trans, and the paddle shifting can also be done. Now, it's just a matter of buying the parts. My latest modeling reflects this trans choice.
I have spent most of the time making models of the pieces that are most important to the overall dimensions of the car. I made a veru rough engine model based on the LS1 bore, stroke, deck height, and bore spacing. Here it is:
The block model, combined with some measurements of the trans and diff, allowed me to position the rear wheels. That was key to my main goal of determing the overall wheelbase. I would like the wheelbase to be as short as a C5, but I don't think that is going to happen. Oh well, I will gain some high speed stability in exchange for a slower turn in. I am hoping most of that will be offset by centering all the mass between the axle centerlines.
I am learning how to make assemblies in UG as I go, so the progress is not as fast as I would like. I end of repositioning new components several times. At least, I am learning. Once I had the front and rear wheels set in position, I started of thinking of ways to shorten the chassis and cockpit area. The relation between pedal position and seatback is key here, so I modeled up a brake pedal. Nothing too fancy, but I learned some more tricks in UG, so I was happy. Here are some pics:
With the pedal, seats, and wheels in place, the car is starting to take some shape. I am also realizing that my cockpit area is probably too big. Looking at other cars like the Ultima GTR, the Factory Five GTM, etc, I notice they position the main “A” pillar between the pedal and seat. The frame then angles inward. I didn’t think this would matter, until I started placing some more tubes in the model. I quickly saw that the one of the main diagonal braces in the front will interfere with the wheel.
It looks like I will shorten the cockpit and add on a narrowed footwell. That should make more room for the front wheels. Back to the drawing board.
A quick shot showing the lower control arms. I know the left arm is crashing into the wheel. I still need to confirm the angle the arms will be at using my desired ground clearance of 3 inches.
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Head Ball
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Update April 2, 2007 - 2007/10/16 19:51After two solid days of sitting in front of the computer, here is what I have to show for it. It may look like I went backwards a little, but I made progress…really. As I started to modify the chassis in the assembly, all the mistakes I had made in the models previously came to light. The only way I was going to be able to continue was to make a new chassis model and a new assembly. The good news is that I am getting much better as using the assembly feature. For me, that means that I don’t have to manually reposition components when I make a change to the frame. That alone will save me hours down the road.
My main concern now is getting the suspension points correct. I know where the pickup points are for a C5, but I’m concerned what will happen to the geometry in my application. Not only will this car sit lower than a C5, it will require more negative camber. I would like to use a competition tire, and from reading some information from Hoosier, their DOT R compound tire runs best at 2 degrees of negative camber. It looks like I now need to spend some time with the various suspension programs I have to see how I can modify the pickup points to get the camber.
Post edited by: Head Ball, at: 2008/01/09 15:02
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Head Ball
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Re:Update April 2, 2007 - 2007/10/17 12:05I feel bad for not posting updates along the way. Now that I reorganized the forums a little, I will be more regular with the updates.
It's not that I haven't been working on the car, I just haven't posted much about it. The biggest step came sometime near the end of April: I went to the metal supply store and bought a bunch of steel tubing to make a build table. The table consists of a simple ladder structure made of 1.5" square tubing covered by 3/4" MDF. All this sits on top of some 4x4 wood posts I had, and those are held up off the floor by jackstands. The surface is pretty level, and it means I'm not working at ground level. Overall, the table is 12' long and 6' wide.
Shortly after finishing the build table, I went back to the metal supply store to buy the first pieces of metal for the actual car. That's when my plans took a turn. I had designed the basic frame rails using 2x4 rectangular tubing with .095 wall thickness. It turns out that it's near impossible to find this particular cross section. None of the local vendors carry rectangular tubing with less than .120 wall thickness. Back to the drawing board. Using Unigraphics, I was able to calculate the weight penalty going from .095 wall to .120 wall tubing. The weight gain was more than I thought was acceptable. After calculating the weight for linear foot of the tubing the store did have, I settled on 1.5x3 tubing with .120 wall. I bought one 24’ stick of this; two 24’ sticks of 1.5” OD DOM round tubing; and two sheets of 18 gauge sheetmetal. I haven’t had sticker shock like that since I saw my first paycheck and realized how much the MAN takes every month.
Some time when I was in Europe, I won a rear subframe from a C5 on eBAY. I decided that it would be much easier to integrate the subframe into my design than it would be to locate all the rear suspension pickups in space. The subframe also provides the mounting point for the differential. I still need to figure out exactly how I am going to mount the subframe. My original idea was to make some steel blocks that mate to the locating pins on the sub and then weld tubes to the steel blocks. Lately, I have been starting to look at acquiring sections of the rear frame from a wrecked C5. They aren’t easy to find; I understand they are actually bonded to the body on the Vette. If anyone knows where I can get some frame sections for cheap, let me know.
Not long after I got the build table built, I bought some suspension pieces from the local salvage yard. I got basically everything to build the left rear corner of the suspension except the spring, shock, and toe rod. The C5 suspension components are unbelievably light. Not that I have weight them, they just feel very light for how large they are. My goal was to get the rear subframe positioned at the correct ride height, and then mock up the a-arms so I could figure out where the upper arms would need to mount. I haven’t made much progress there.
The last two pieces I picked up were some scrap powertrain pieces I found on the net. Someone local sold me a LS1 block and oil pan that had some custom ventilation points courtesy of a healthy dose of NO2. When I am done mocking the powertrain up, I should be able to get my money back by taking it to the recycling center. I also found a scrap differential case for the price of shipping. Once I find a transmission case, I can bolt them all together and start finalizing the layout. Once again, if anyone has a bead on a 4L60E case for cheap, let me know.
Ok, so where does that leave me? The pics below were taken last night. I have cut and tacked together the lower frame rails for the cockpit area. The engine is sitting about where it will when finished, as is the seat, and the rear subframe. The wheelbase is coming out longer than I would have liked at 120”. For comparison, the C5 is 104.5” and the C6 is 106”. Of course, a Formula 1 car is about 126” so I’m in good company. Enjoy the pics:
Post edited by: Head Ball, at: 2007/10/29 14:29
Post edited by: Head Ball, at: 2007/12/13 18:10
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Head Ball
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Update October 29 - 2007/10/29 15:10Made some more progress this week. I bought some rear frame rail sections from a C5 last week. They showed up on Friday. I spent yesterday cutting and grinding off the pieces I don't need. The rails still need some more clean up, but I now have a great way to mount the rear subframe and controls arms. I was struggling with how to mount the upper controls arms, so getting these rails helps a lot.
I also won the right rear lower control arm on ebay. Next is to get a set of front control arms so I can start making the necessary brackets. I do not plan on using the front subframe. It includes a bunch of mounts I won't be using, and they never seem to sell for cheap on ebay, like the rears do.
Last weekend a buddy and I started bending some tubing. We got the first bend done when it started raining. The bender actually mounts in a trailer hitch, so we were outside and could not continue in the rain for fear of the exposed metal on the bender rusting. Anyway, when we pulled the tube out, we realized we had not bent it far enough. In an effort to put the tube back in the bender, we actually broke the steel tube the bender mounts on. I guess we used a little too much leverage. I fixed that this weekend as well. I am now ready to try some more bends. Hopefully, I will get some of that done next weekend.
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Head Ball
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Update November 10, 2007 - 2007/11/10 21:18It’s time for another update. I feel like I got a lot done since the last update. Ebay came through again, this time with a 4L60E trans case that just happened to have a LS1 bellhousing on it. That was the last piece I needed to bolt the drivetrain together. It appears I was wrong about all the 4L60E cases being the same though. This case does not match the bolt pattern of the C5 differential. It’s the same basic bolt circle, so I was able to bolt them together. That is all I needed from this case. The bellhousing should work with no problems. Here is the complete drivetrain bolted together and sitting on the build table. It is really long.
Another positive step over the last couple of weeks was finding Mongoose Motorsports. They are kit car maker based in Ohio. I stumbled on them while stress testing the internet at work. Anyway, they are making a Corvette GTP replica. I don’t know that they are the first to do this, but what makes them different is how they are doing it. Mongoose is using the C5 transaxle bolted to a LSx engine just like I am. My car is basically identical to theirs, except for the beautiful body on theirs. And the fact that it’s done. Just little things. Through the wonders of the net, I talked with one of the guys that drives the car for Mongoose at competitions. Long story short, I am going to meet them in Ohio to take a look at their car and see how they sorted out some of the things I am struggling with. For instance, they have somehow reduced their wheelbase to 106 inches; 14 inches shorted than where I thought I was. I am looking forward to the trip, and I should be able to get some good pics of their car.
Today was nice enough weather, so I headed for the garage. My first task was to make some motor mounts so I could get the drivetrain position finalized. I used some plate I had laying around. Here are some pics of the mounts in progress:
While I was mocking up the mounts, I realized that if I put the mounts in the same plane as the main roll hoop, I could tie it all together pretty easily. I figure that will help provide some lateral stiffness to the chassis. A builder I talked to when I first started designing the car said I should always try and find ways to have parts serve more than one purpose. He said that was key to making a light, and strong, chassis. We’ll see how that works out. The consequence of doing this is that the engine is intruding on the cockpit even more than before. I tried to take some pics of the relationship between the engine and seat, but it’s a little tough with the camera. I still need to pick up a set of heads and covers to see how much there will be with a complete engine. I am already envisioning a heatshield between the engine and seats to keep the heat reasonable. It should be quite a sound sitting right next to the engine. I am debating having the intake between the driver and passenger, or flipping the manifold so the intake is facing backwards. I have a lot of time before I have to make that decision.
Something else that has been bothering me is the design of the front down bars on the roll cage. I was afraid that they would be in my line of sight. I didn’t want to bend up a bunch of tubing and this find this out, so I mocked up the cage using some metal racks I had laying around. Obviously, the metal rod is not the same size as the tubing, but it is really helping me visualize how the cage will come together. I sat in the seat, and the down tube looks like it will be out of my main field of vision. Here are some pics of the mocked up cage. I know it’s not pretty, but it works for what I need.
My next big task is to take measurements from the mocked up cage and put them into the CAD model. That will confirm the lengths of the tubes and where the bends need to be. Maybe next week I will have some more CAD pics.
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Head Ball
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Update November 19, 2007 - 2007/11/19 13:17Another week, another update. While I don’t have CAD pics to show this week, I have something better: actual tubing bent up and tacked in place. With the help of a couple of my buddies, Jesse and Brandon, we bent up the main roll hoop, the top hoop, and the A-pillar down tubes. Jesse has a lot of previous experience with the bender, so he showed me how to set it up and mark the tube correctly. It’s not very easy to visualize the first time you do it. Without someone else that has done it before, you could end up wasting a lot of tube. I am proud to report I only made one wrong bend. (I guess I should admit that was when I was working by myself on the down tubes.)
I ended up changing the design of the main roll hoop. I made the legs of the “A” frame a little taller to make sure the cross bar will clear the intake manifold. The main roll hoop came out a little too narrow, but that was nothing some good old fashioned brute strength, and accompanying back pain, couldn’t fix. It will take a keen eye to see it, but the vertical legs are tilted inward a few degrees. I think it makes for a more custom look. Here are some pics of the bending process and the cage as it comes together:
The joints were made with another wonderful purchase from Harbor Freight, their take on the hole saw notcher. As with most any multi-part pieces of equipment from HF, it needed some adjustment. As you can see here, the centerlines of the hole saw and tube were anything but aligned. It took a few tries, but we were able to get it shimmed up to the point it made pretty good cuts. The cuts would have been even better if the hole saw were actually round. The truly ironic part is that I bought the hole saw from Home Depot because I thought it would be of better quality than Harbor Freight. Oh well, it still managed to make some decent notches even though it wobbled like an egg.
After getting the cage together, I spent a lot of time sitting in the seat trying to figure out where it will eventually go. With the seat in the position I showed in the last update, the down tube is not really in my line of site, but it could be better. I think for this coming week, I am going to cut out the rectangular tubing going across the cockpit so I can move the seat around. By moving the seat closer to the middle of the car, I feel like I will have more protection from a roll over; my head is completely inside the top tube. I still plan on adding tubes for side impact protection, but I think keeping my head inside the top tube and the side of the seat inside the main roll hoop is a better overall way to stay safe. It also lessens the effect of seeing the down tube in my peripheral vision. I think I will have to move the seat forward to clear the engine, but I feel I will still have enough legroom. Another buddy is going to let me borrow some LS heads this week so I can confirm the clearance between the seat and engine. By this time next week I should have the position of the seat and engine all set.
Post edited by: Head Ball, at: 2007/11/19 13:21
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JScottGT
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Re:Update November 19, 2007 - 2007/11/19 17:43Looking good Ken! Do you think it will be ready for some runs in the spring? The main roll hoop assembly is looking very truck-like though. You should think about skinning it with a truck body and make a Craftsman Truck look-alike.
IIRC when setting up clearance from the roll hoop halo to your helmet, there should be at least 2" clearance.
Post edited by: JScottGT, at: 2007/11/19 17:46Jason 2000 Mustang GT 5.4L Power
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Head Ball
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Re:Update November 19, 2007 - 2007/11/19 18:02Jason, thanks. I don't think the car will be running by the spring. It's possible it could be ready for the last event of the year, though. It's amazing how quickly things come to a halt for something that seems so simple. Right now, I am trying to plan out where the seat really needs to be. After that, I have to figure out where the brake pedal will go. I can't really do any more work towards the front of the car until I settle those questions. For that matter, I can't do anything on the rear either, because if I have to move the engine back, it would mean cutting off any tubing I added.
I wanted to make the main hoop a little more eye catching, but I also wanted the main cross piece to clear the intake manifold. It would be interesting with a truck body on it, but I don't have that kind of skill at this point. Not to mention, we don't allow trucks at the events.
The roll hoop gives plenty of clearance with the seat so low. This was something I made sure of. I think I have about 6-8" the way it sits right now. I also had my buddy, who is much taller than me, sit in it and he has plenty of clearance.
Ken
Post edited by: Head Ball, at: 2007/11/19 18:04
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Head Ball
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Update December 3, 2007 - 2007/12/03 15:24I finally have some more CAD pics of the chassis. Right now, I am doing some research trying to figure out the most efficient use of tubing. When I say efficient, I want the chassis to be as stiff as possible, especially in torsion, for the lightest weight. The nice thing about UG is it calculates the weight of the frame so I can keep track of how much the extra tubes are adding.
I found a link to a SAE paper on increasing the torsional stiffness of a NASCAR Cup car. It was done almost 10 years ago, but it's still relevant. When I read through the article, I realized the Cup car chassis is very similar to what I am designing. The paper analyzes every change they make for added stiffness and weight. It is serving as a great guide for me. Here is the link for anyone interested: http://www.ces.clemson.edu/%7Elonny/pubs/journal/sae983053.pdf
And, here are some pics of where I stand right now:
In this configuration, the chassis weighs 173 lbs. I still need to add all the tubes connecting the main cockpit to the rear subframe; the side impact protection tubing; bracing for the front suspension area; cross-bracing for the lower frame rails in the cockpit; and the sheetmetal. I plan to make a single piece sheetmetal floor as well as front and rear firewalls. In addition to this, I am planning on bonding/welding sheetmetal between key tubes to make some vertical shear panels. From my research, these should add a fair amount of stiffness. I will try and get some pics of that this weekend.
On the side, I started making a balsa wood model of the chassis. I did this because I don't know how to use the FEA package on UG. It didn't take long to realize it will probably be easier to learn to use the FEA. So, that's what I am doing. It might take a while, but it will allow me to try a lot more ideas. The wife will be happy too, because there won't be balsa wood and glue all over the kitchen table.
Post edited by: Head Ball, at: 2007/12/03 15:25
Post edited by: Head Ball, at: 2007/12/13 18:19
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Smitty
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Re:Update December 3, 2007 - 2007/12/04 16:24Looks Good Ken! You've more balls than I!! (is that why it's named 3Balls?) When I'm done with the GTO, I've considered tackling building a kit car myself - a PREFABBED kit car! It'll be fun to watch you build/engineer one from the ground up!
Hey, I don't know which direction you're gonna go when building that engine, but I've got a pair of the factory 241 casting heads that came on our '04 GTO's (same as base model C5 vette) sitting all boxed up in the attic. They are fully assembled as from the factory, only have 9K miles on them. I also have the original cam and lifters, same mileage, specs for this model year were 197/207 .479/.467 on a 116.5LSA. I'd like to get $150 for the heads, you can have the cam & lifters for free if you want them.
I just thought if you were gonna go for an econo-build of the motor, you might be interested. '04 LS1's were rated at 350HP/365TQ with this combo. I grew up near Holly, have family in the area and best friend lives near Imlay City, so I might be coming over that way for the Holidays and could drop them off.
Let me know if you're interested...
SeanThe Toy: '04 M6 GTO in QuickSilver
LS6+ Conversion, 3.91 Gears, '06 Brakes w/ Carbotech XP10/9's & DBA rotors, Pedders Drop Springs w/ Koni's, Noltec bushings, Quickor rear bar, 17" Kosei K1's w/ Toyo RA1's in 255/40
Tuned on a DynoJet to 382rwhp & 361 rwtq at Baker Engineering, Nunica, Mi.
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Head Ball
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Re:Update December 3, 2007 - 2007/12/04 18:36Smitty, Thanks for the compliments. This project is something I have thought about and wanted to do for years. I most likely would not have done it without the internet. I have found so much information and inspiration on the net; it helps keep me going. That's why I am trying to post updates. Hopefully, I can give other people some ideas, and others can give me ideas and support.
I appreciate the offer on the heads. I may go that way, and I will contact you if I do. My plan right now is to focus on the chassis during the winter and then try to buy/build the drivetrain in the spring/summer.
I think a kit car is a great way to go. From what I have seen, they are still a huge amount of work, but it's more like fit and finish work. I am staying away from bodywork on purpose. I don't like it. Or interior work for that matter. I think anyone that has seen the inside of the Vette will attest to that. What kind of kit were you thinking about?
Ken
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Head Ball
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Update December 4, 2007 - 2007/12/04 18:40I finally figured out how to run FEA in UG. I had to install some components that were not installed the first time around. Once that was done, I gave it a try. I still have a long way to go before I can start testing the chassis, but at least I know the solver works. I'm pretty happy about that, because the balsa wood model was turning into a mess.
Here are two screen shots of my first two attempts at FEA:
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Smitty
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Re:Update December 3, 2007 - 2007/12/06 15:43Hey Ken,
I know what you mean about the internet stoking the dreams of shade-tree hotrodders like ourselves. Much of the work I've done with the GTO wouldn't have been possible without it...
As for the heads, I only offered them now cause you mentioned needing some to help with the mock-up while designing motor mounts, engine/chassis location, etc. I ain't trying to get rid of them, they've set quietly in the attic since I did the H/C swap last March. They are there if you need them...
As for the GTO, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, so I've begun to consider what I'd like to do next... I concur with you in my approach to bodywork - it's one of the very few things I've hired out with the Goat, and would do with a kit as well. As much fun as the GTO has been, it'll never be an exceptional track car - it's just too damn heavy! I refuse to strip it down to bare bones in an effort to shed weight, so I'll enjoy it for what it is - a modern day incarnation of an American musclecar (regardless of it's birthplace!)
Mine is a toy, only sees about 3-4K miles a season, stored winters, etc., etc. ( I can count on one hand the # of times it's seen raindrops, unfortunately most of them have been at our trackdays!) Sometimes when I think "If I had it to do all over again", I think that a light weight, rear drive, convertible with a big torquey V-8 would be just the ticket. I've taken a hard look at the Factory Five AC Cobra and while I've been a fan of the bodystyle since I was a kid, I'm not at all familiar with Ford power or drivetrain. Something tells me that an LSx in an AC Cobra is something tantamount to heresy.
The kit that has captured my fancy as of late is that of the Gardner Douglas T70 http://www.gdcars.com/gdt70/gdt70_index.htm, (actually, the engine/drivetrain has some similarities with your design) though the price tag is a bit steep.
Anyway, I'm gonna continue to play with the GTO and maybe a couple years down the road I'll decide to sell off a couple of the toys to raise the funds to begin a new project...!
Good Luck with yours! We'll look forward to updates and to seeing it on track one day!
SeanThe Toy: '04 M6 GTO in QuickSilver
LS6+ Conversion, 3.91 Gears, '06 Brakes w/ Carbotech XP10/9's & DBA rotors, Pedders Drop Springs w/ Koni's, Noltec bushings, Quickor rear bar, 17" Kosei K1's w/ Toyo RA1's in 255/40
Tuned on a DynoJet to 382rwhp & 361 rwtq at Baker Engineering, Nunica, Mi.
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